God said *sigh*
So, I have to say, I've spent the last few days feeling kind of humiliated by the post I wrote on the seventh about the way Jackson is dealing with the God question. Because I'm not as clear as I should be, in my own head, about the subject, so the information I'm transmitting to him is very black and white and oversimplified. A five-year-old who still believes in Santa still has lots of time to sort things out, fortunately, but I'm increasingly seeing that my curiosity about organized religion in general and the Catholic church in particular stopped developing at the time I got totally fed up with going to church and stopped around age twelve. So basically I still have a twelve-year-old's indignance wrapped up in a fortysomething's half-assed scholarship on the subject, opinions cobbled together from PBS, NPR, and various issues of the New Yorker.
I've been inspired, over the last few months, by Julia Sweeney. Who used to be on Saturday Night Live, among other things, but she's also been doing monologues for several years about recommitting herself and then slowly pulling away from the Catholic church, as well as some desperately funny stuff about having cancer at the same time as her brother. (You can download an episode of This American Life that was devoted to her, as well as her monologue, "God Said Ha!" from iTunes).
Then, in a comment on that sort of humiliating post, Flippy tipped me off to Julia's blog, which is pretty much just what I needed right now. They say when the student is ready the Hollywood actress who's read an awful lot on the subject appears, and it's so true!
But I needed to say something more on the subject because that earlier post was so half-assed, because I'M still half-assed about my reasoning. I'm not scholar enough to really argue the God vs. No God issue; when I was younger I had some inexplicably mystical moments to cope with, but I've also experienced profound comfort by stepping into total atheism, too.
So I just thought I'd clarify that somewhat, because bringing up the spiritual education of my child seemed to be a hot-button issue (making me glad I'd again disabled anonymous comments) but I still intend to work some parts of it out in public just to see what people's comments are, since the last time everyone was so decent about it; even the angry e-mails were kind of pleasant and sincere, and I really appreciate that.
I've been inspired, over the last few months, by Julia Sweeney. Who used to be on Saturday Night Live, among other things, but she's also been doing monologues for several years about recommitting herself and then slowly pulling away from the Catholic church, as well as some desperately funny stuff about having cancer at the same time as her brother. (You can download an episode of This American Life that was devoted to her, as well as her monologue, "God Said Ha!" from iTunes).
Then, in a comment on that sort of humiliating post, Flippy tipped me off to Julia's blog, which is pretty much just what I needed right now. They say when the student is ready the Hollywood actress who's read an awful lot on the subject appears, and it's so true!
But I needed to say something more on the subject because that earlier post was so half-assed, because I'M still half-assed about my reasoning. I'm not scholar enough to really argue the God vs. No God issue; when I was younger I had some inexplicably mystical moments to cope with, but I've also experienced profound comfort by stepping into total atheism, too.
So I just thought I'd clarify that somewhat, because bringing up the spiritual education of my child seemed to be a hot-button issue (making me glad I'd again disabled anonymous comments) but I still intend to work some parts of it out in public just to see what people's comments are, since the last time everyone was so decent about it; even the angry e-mails were kind of pleasant and sincere, and I really appreciate that.
42 Comments:
I read this post, then wandered over to Julia Sweeney's blog, and at the end of reading her topmost post I have only this to say: Why do people feel that someone else's religious beliefs are any of their business?
Honestly, I don't think a person's religious affiliation should be part of the criteria we use to determine whether we like them or not.
Of course, I'm in the "I'm not sure, but if they prove it, awesome" camp myself, so maybe that's why I feel this way.
I am a recovering Catholic. I stopped going to church by the time I was 17 (having been forced to attend services by my parents ... I didn't stop until I was on my own).
I was tired of asking questions and being told I couldn't ask any questions, just believe. It's called faith. But my brain doesn't work that way. I always wanted to know the why and how of things.
Long before my son was born I decided that I would not shove religion down his throat. That what I did or didn't believe was a personal choice/decision.
I didn't leave him hanging, however. I told him that in order for him to find out what HE believed or didn't believe in, he needed to research it on his own.
And he did. He went to services for Mormon, Jewish, Catholic, Methodist, Buddhist, Jehovah's Witness, and other religious groups.
He also studied atheism and creationism.
The bottom line is that I wanted him to have what I never had ... a free will to decide for himself what he believes inside his heart ... and not be told what to believe.
How did he end up? He and his family attend services every Sunday. He's very involved with his church for youth groups and coaching. What religion or non-religious group did he pick for himself? I don't really know. All I know is that he is comfortable worshiping what his heart feels.
Wow, people will write angry emails about anything it seems. From your son's own personal religious beliefs to Dooce's opinion about chicken broth. I'm happy to point anyone to Julia Sweeney's blog. She's so sensible about everything, and she just seems plain ol' nice. Right after I found her blog, I ordered a copy of God Said, Ha!, and I was hooked. I can't wait to read her new book.
Religion is something Man has created ... my only concern is that people get angry at religion (aka: people) and they take it out on God.
Glad everyone has been so civil in their posts regarding the subject. Life is such a confusing thing, isn't it?
I have been rolling around with this very same issue lately. Also, the issue of "Santa" and christmas, but the problem I have is sort of the same as you describe: I don't know where I stand on those things, so I just avoid talking about them with my nearly three-year-old. It's quite a challenge to teach a child about something, if you don't know how you feel about it yourself.
My life is proof (for me) there is a loving God.
It's still hard to believe at times, all I have to do is look behind me.
Al believes what he wants to believe - angels, fairies, Santa, God...
Children have enormous faith don't they?
I saw Julia here in Seattle awile ago performing "Letting Go of God." As you said, she manages to be both profound and funny. Whenever i read her blog i can hear her voice very clearly in my head.
Thanks to you and Flippy for Julia's blog. I am a seminary graduate who got un-called during seminary. It's a long story that involves clergy sexual abuse and a desire to be better than the jerks, basically a desire for transcendence. I am now an agnostic convert to Judaism who has joined and dropped out of two or three synagugues. My only affilation now is with our community center, for the pool.
My daughter was born Hindu and has been converted to Judaism by nature of her adoption. Her conversion would not pass a rabbi's inspection because we never dipped her in a mikvah and don't follow all the rules. She is five going on six and she doesn't ask about God, she makes pronouncements. One day God is not real, the next day God is on the checklist of things we cannot forget when we leave the apartment. She is kind of pissed at us for choosing Judaism when we had Christmas.
All this to say you are not alone with your questions, or your confusion about how to teach your children. I am afraid to go back and read your comments because you allude to a hot button. But I wanted to throw this one into the mix.
I miss the days when I knew what to know and what to teach my kids. But I would never inflict those days on them.
Wow. I've spent the last hour reading Julia's blog and it's... totally awesome. Alex is just now getting to the age where this stuff is important and I'm at a loss.
Do you and Jack agree on religion? Dave and I don't and I think it's going to be an issue. One of us is going to have to step aside and swallow our views and I have a feeling it's going to be me.
I eventually unsubbed from Julia's blog. Not because her views on God are different from mine, but because I got tired of reading about how people who do believe in God are stupid.
Religion is a very personal issue. I attend a particular church, but I have always believed that church is an institution in a building that is mostly for social purposes. Church is only one small piece of my religious views. I also completely view evolution, the big bang and other proven science as absolutely true. As my four-year-old put it, "God made the science so explain the science to me."
As long as you can stick to a reasonably consistent viewpoint (even if it's somewhat contradictory like mine ;>), your child will be fine.
As the mom of a 9yo (boy), I can only tell you that the questions get more interesting the older they get.
The god question is in my current batch, too.
i love this subject, but for me, religious/spiritual beliefs are so deeply personal, i find my own quite hard to talk about. i have spent most of my life studying religion and minored in it in undergrad, and i'm fascinated most of all by the very tender place where spiritual belief exists inside of people. spiritual belief meets a very particular kind of need, is often completely inexplicable and certainly unprovable, and it touches us so deeply. on the other hand, when my brother died and i most expected to be buoyed by my various spiritual beliefs, i found them all fleeing the scene. i stood hollowly at the funeral saying a mantra over some beads and got absolutely nothing out of it. i lost all religion for probably two years. amazing, really, the journey of it.
I devoted my NaBloPoMo Sundays to pondering God, organized religion and my relationship with Church. I am glad I did, it was nice to just "get it out there" for myself. So, I can definitely recommend blogging about it as a way to organize your thoughts.
As I see it, the primary problem with organized religion is the PEOPLE. And also, the "organized" is a bit of an oxymoron.
I am very active in my church (I will be on the board of trustees beginning in Jan.) so one might think I had everything all figured out.
I decided some time ago that in reality, actions are more important than beliefs. As the Dalai Lama said "My religion is kindness." If you are happy and healthy and treat beings well and behave ethically, I do not care how you got there. Your inspiration can be the God of the Bible or the sunset over the ocean - why should anyone care?
If religious people want others to join them in their beliefs, they should demonstrate their loving beliefs with their actions, and they will have more followers than they can count.
I forgot to say the part about "But I think I am as confused about the nature of God as anyone..." D'oh.
Thankyou for your honesty! I was pondering over your previous post yesterday (while cleaning the bath) and I couldn't work out a worthwhile response that wasn't full of cliches and dogma!
I grew up in the church and for some reason I'm not sure of, I never rebelled despite being forced to go (it never even occurred to me to suggest not going!). Now I could not imagine my life without God... I find great comfort and strength with him, but I don't have all the answers, that's for sure! I don't think we ever will!
A book I loved and found thought provoking and helpful was "Reaching for the Invisible God" by Philip Yancy. He was scarred by his church experiences as a child and young man, and in this book he explores the topic of God's existence and whether it matters and why we're obssessed with it. (I think he covers all that - it's a while since I read the book!)
And if God does exist - look hard enough and he will surely show up because he is. If he doesn't exist, look hard and he won't show up because he isn't.
Enough rambling - I hope you find the answers you need!
"So basically I still have a twelve-year-old's indignance wrapped up in a fortysomething's half-assed scholarship on the subject"
Beautifully said - and exactly where I'm at,too. Except my indignation is about seven years old because I stopped believing them after they told me the communion wafer literally turns into Jesus' flesh when the little bells ring. I was only seven years old but I wasn't a complete idiot.
It has been interesting reading. In my 40's (I am 64) I had a crisis of faith which, by all rights, should have happened in my late teens, but didn't. I studied, prayed, read, talked to others, attended various groups and and churches. Now my faith in God is stronger than it's ever been, and it grows daily.
I most certainly agree with those of you who have said that faith, or lack of it, is personal, and I don't have the right to try to impose my faith on you.
I wish you all well, and I say a prayer that all of you find what you are looking for.
Luckily, my son is only one so I have at least a year or two before I have to deal with these questions, but they will come up and I'm already worrying about how to deal with this issue. My husband and I are both athiest, but we live in Utah and all of our relatives are affiliated with one religion or another (mostly Mormon).
Ideally I don't want to push athiesm down his throat the way other kids get religion. I'd like for him to figure out his own beliefs. How to do this without influencing him one way or the other, I don't know how or if it's even possible.
I'm a lurker, but thought I would pop out with a suggestion. As a cradle Catholic who has stopped attending mass but still considers herself a person of faith (but maybe not religion?), I've done a lot of thinking about this. I'm too liberal for mainstream Catholicism so I often feel at odds with mainstream religion. But I want to suggest C.S. Lewis "Mere Christianity". It's an interesting read, at the least, not too intellectual or theological, and I don't actually remember there being much about Christ in there. He offers some food for though about whether and why God is. (Not too long either, which is a plus for me!)
You can be a deeply spiritual person without ever even considering the existence of a higher power. I tell my kids, who are being raised in a more traditional background, out of respect for my husband and his side of the family, that there is god in everyone. This has nothing to do with any organized religion (which honestly, they scare me, all of them) but more with my own belief that we are all born perfect and good. (OK, maybe almost all of us, cause some of us piss me the hell off)
We moved from the west coast to North Carolina this summer.
Try being an atheist AND a vegetarian in the land of god and bbq...
I recently received an e-mail expressing hurt over how I sometimes express my own indignance about religion, and it was a good thing, it turned out. She and I e-mailed back and forth, and it helped me be less indignant (at least publicly) if no less an atheist. I, for one, really appreciated your post and look forward to more in that vein if you have them coming.
I recently wrote a post about teaching kids right and wrong in heaven/hell terms and one commenter suggested that while I may be uncomfortable with extreme religious beliefs, that the devout are offended by my lack thereof. "Offended." I suppose this was exactly my point. Also why I'm having a tough time when I think about how to approach the G question with my daughter. I suppose I'm going to need to find a way to separate faith itself from religious institutions. Easy, right?
I'm glad there are those of you with a few years of parenting on me to lead the way. I'm eager to see how this all plays out for you.
My boyfriend has two boys- 8 and 6 -and while the youngest is fine (for the most part) with "I believe in science" the oldest believes in God and says he is religious (though he doesn't know what that means). When he mentions this our response is "WHAT?" or "if you're so religious maybe you should spend your Sundays going to church, ha ha." Despite persistant provocation he is pretty adamant about his beliefs. This and other experiences with acquaintances lead me to belive that there are those who are simply spiritual seekers by nature- a personality trait that can be a pretty strong guiding force in their lives.
Or maybe its a developmental issue- some are still stuck in the "magical thinking" intuitive state (tooth fairies, Santa, etc.) that many break out of when they hit concrete/formal operational stages. This seems to be the issue with his mom, who broke out of 7th Day Adventism but never made it past Tantra or Amway.
My kid asked me who God was the other day.
What do I say? I don't believe in it..but I don't want to lay MY issues on him....
But he is four. Because I couldn't give him a one sentence answer...he got bored...isn't that big a deal.
He is already dubious at this young age about Santa and the Easter Bunny too....ah kids today.
How do you say...well some people believe in this higher being that nobody has seen and that is called religion. While we teach YOU as a child to believe in fairies and witches and goblins and Santa and that is make believe!?
Kristine, I'll second the Mere Christianity recommendation. It's a life/thought-changer.
It wasn't until my thirties that I connected my faith/religion with my behavior, both toward myself and toward others. I would wish this level of clarity/understanding for everyone, but I also realize that faith is a totally personal walk, and people can find clairity and understanding in ways that I haven't.
I can't stand the drive-by Christians who, I'm afraid, are cheapening the faith. But I also can't stand the assumption all over the blogosphere that having a strong, active faith means being weak, ignorant, or stupid.
Thank you for your honesty, and for honoring both sides.
If you have the chance, read some Dr. Wayne Dyer. It is good stuff about living a purposeful and limitless life, by embracing the spiritual you without preaching any specific doctrine, rather ways of living. He helped me sort out what God means to me AND make me OK with that. I am happier, healthier more centered, kinder and more purposeful than ever.
It is a hard quest, I hope that you find all that you need to help you answer your questions. I wish you luck and will be standing on the sideliness in my cheerleader outfit saying 'go fussy go'! :) (Ok, maybe just sweats and fuzzy slippers, but you get the idea).
enjoy the learning!
I'm in the same non-descript (half-assed) state - I don't consider myself anything in particular. But, I'm also fairly sure I wouldn't be content labelling myself as anything in particular, either. I'm happy enough acknowledging that there is probably something involved that I don't understand (I don't even understand my microwave, so that's not saying much) but whether it should be classified as Christian or pagan or Hindu or undiscovered science or Art doesn't seem particularly important at the end of the day.
The catch is that I have no idea how to explain that to a toddler...
Jenn @ QR
To me, the "God question" feels a little like string theory. A bunch of people think it's pretty cool and it explains everything. Other people think it's a bunch of nonsense. I don't pretend to be intelligent enough to believe in it or not. I tell the boy, "This is my impression based on my understanding, which is pretty limited, but I don't think most people really can understand it well enough to say definitively... that's what a theory is," and let it go. I have other things that I can understand that are more interesting to me, and we spend more time talking about them.
I'd give anything to have the God of my youth back. If there is no God then it won't hurt me to believe in one, just for a night or two. If I take personal responsibility for everything I possibly can in my life and there are still things left over, I am open to a mystical intervention. When you are disapointed in wars fought in the name of Gods, it seems dangerous to define mystical intervention and all it's workings as God. So I circle the flame missing the warmth and trying not to get burned.
We are Unitarian Universalists, and If I got a toaster for everyone I sent that way I'd have, um, a lot of toasters.
The congregations vary a lot, and it is worth attending a few (and attending more than one service - as some can be political and others not). I was raised UU, but my friends who left other religions say the services helped them work through issues, as they are more philosophical than anything else. check out uua.org for more info.
My oldest is 3 years older than Jackson, and she has decided that Santa makes more sense than God. My older 2 sing in the Choir of a local christian college (it's the only children's choir I could find). We have to keep reminding her to keep her mouth closed, and how everyone can have their own opinions.
Good luck figuring everything out, I look forward to reading what you write.
Rachel
A Gaggle of Girls
http://www.ourgaggleofgirls.com/agog
It's not surprising that you're undergoing this spiritual quest. After growing up as an athiest, in my mid-30's I was pulled to find out what else was out there, and I sank my teeth into the religions of the world. I got a lot from Hinduism and Buddhism, and eventually I cobbled together what works for me. And that, in a simplified form, is what I presented to my children, with the caveat that it's simply what I *think* to be true, not necessarily what *is* true. I do want them to think for themselves when they're ready.
Their school (Waldorf) is more religious than I'd like (there are verses with the word "god" in them, the word that caused me to sit out from saying the Pledge of Allegiance at school beginning in the 8th grade, but that's my own problem. The school also presents stories from the Old Testamant, as well as exploring Hinduism, Greek mythology, and Islam), but I agree that some sort of spirituality is good for children. Believing there is a *reason* for all this, for all the things, both wonderful and awful, that happen in the world, gives them a feeling of groundedness. Even if that reason is "to learn and grow as a human".
You might be interested in some of the "Seth" books, or since you're fairly science-minded, perhaps "Messages From Michael"? Both of these come very close to what works for me, but I suppose they're a little "out there".
I think it's wonderful that you're working out some of your search publicly. Clearly there's a lot of support out here for this process.
Atheist. I so can spell.
No wonder I was so confused.
Pioneer Woman said, "But I also can't stand the assumption all over the blogosphere that having a strong, active faith means being weak, ignorant, or stupid."
HERE, HERE!
I can't count the number of times I've been dancing, drinking, partying on a Saturday night to the hip band at the hip bar with the hipsters, and when I mention something about going to church, you literally can see the noses wrinkle. I want to flick in the forehead anyone who puts themself out to be non-judgmental, accepting, tolerant of those who are different, and then assumes that people with faith are backward morons.
And to clarify - I didn't think that your original post was any of that...but I was sort of feeling it in some of the comments. The tone of "I'm intelligent, I'm forward thinking, and as a result anyone who believes is not."
I'm certainly not the person to give parenting tips or advice, as I don't have any kids of my own (sixteen nieces and nephews!), so you won't ever hear me tsk tsk tsk-ing about how you choose to raise your boy. I just hope that when I'm lucky enough to have kids, I'll receive the same consideration from others.
MontanaJen
I know a few people who don't propagate the whole Santa thing on their kids, feeling that it's lying to them. I say whatever to that, and I also add a comment I read about the issue on Metafilter:
"My parents lied to me about Santa when I was a kid and it was awesome."
I'm with you! The commenter on my blog (http://hardtobehuman.blogspot.com/) is an atheist, I'm a recovering Catholic, I guess...I think it helps to argue about it and decide not to worry about it....but I haven't had to try to explain it to a kid yet, either!
no angry emails from me. i applaud your being so thoughtful about whatever it is you end up believing and even if it ends up being very different from what i believe i will still respect it because it was achieved through conscious thought. not a damn thing wrong with that.
I'm very sad that you felt "humiliated" by your post. It was a funny story about a funny moment in your very clever child's life. When I was his age, I was busy informing other kindergartners that no, death isn't like sleep and you don't wake right up and keep right on living. Oh, the trauma that caused. Then at seven, I started asking everyone, including other children, what was the point of being alive since we were all just going to die. What a jolly little girl I was.
(Incidentally, I never did get a good answer to that last question, but in my 20s I decided that it didn't really matter -- to the cosmos or to me -- whether I ever found out. But I digress.)
This questioning, this assertion of belief that isn't always the same, this is part of every human's life. You should never feel humiliated to tell your truth even if/as it changes. So you're not a scholar. So your opinion is educated more by emotion and personal experience than reading. So what? So are most people's, whether they will admit this to you or themselves or not.
You are entitled to the truth of your own heart, and to say it out loud.
We are right in the same place with our 6 & 4 year old kids, which is...uhm, where exactly? I tell them I don't have all the answers, which will have to do for now.
Since we're all about recommending books in this thread, I have to throw in my own suggestion:
Conversations With God by Neale Donald Walsch. You can probably find it at your local library, or they can get hold of it for you.
I was raised by a liberal Baptist minister father and a spiritually seeking mother, who has felt most comfortable in Quaker & UU settings.
I never felt comfortable with any sort of religious beliefs, never really considered myself anything specific.
The Conversations With God books just made total sense to me, and the view of the universe they provided me is what I explain to my kids (in simplified terms) when the topic comes up.
However, they understand that these are the beliefs that I hold, and that lots of people believe lots of different things, and that that's OK.
I was brought up a catholic and I do empathise - it gets stuck in your blood like malaria. Our son's going to encounter it (i.e. the God issue) everywhere at some point so I've finally started tentatively approaching it in as even-handed a way as I can. I'm perhaps overly sensitive to handing on my own hang-ups and prejudices.
No books to recommend but after deferring on the topic for ages, I finally broached the topic of the Great Beyond with our about-to-be-three year old via the Buddha-in-the-Fireplace in our lounge. This Xmas, we've muddled things a little by planting a nativity set squarely at Buddha's feet. About all I can report so far is that a) dudelet's been seen attempting to shade Buddha's eyes from the sun and b) he tried to balance Jesus on Joseph's knee then gave up and knocked everything over. But he's asked questions and it's provided a focus. Maybe I'll add some icons from other religions as he gets older and just see what happens.
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